"I've done this a long time. U know you copped a feel?; "If it didn't happen, you would say she is a liar and Ed, I have not heard that once."

The People's third witness was Humboldt County Sheriff's Sgt. Sam Williams. At the time he was investigating the John Kufner case, he was a detective.

He observed Jane Doe's CAST interview, then met with DA Investigator Kyla Baxley and "another staff member" from the DA's office and described a pretext call would be best.

"It's on the fly," Sgt. Williams said, in response to a question by Deputy District Attorney Zach Curtis. "Sometimes we give guidance as to what questions would be appropriate. The phone call was placed by J (first name of Jane Doe's mother). DA Investigator Baxley provided some guidance and I may have."

A SART exam of Jane Doe # 1 and a CAST interview of Jane Doe # 2 was done. Kufner was then interviewed by Detective Cheryl Franco and Sgt. Williams, outside his residence in McKinleyville, in an unmarked vehicle.

A few seconds of the interview was played so Sgt. William could identify and verify the exhibit. The recorded interview was played for the jury. Graphic sexual allegations and descriptions were made during this call. The jurors reactions were worth noting during the almost two hour call, some more visible than others.

At the beginning of the recording, Sgt. Williams told Kufner he was not under arrest, he was free to leave anytime. He asked Kufner, if he knew why he was being interviewed.

Kufner answered, "I have a feeling it has to do with the phone call I got from J (Jane Doe's mother's first name). She mumbled and jumbled and then said something about inappropriate touching."

Kufner said that Jane Doe #1 was 9. Said the girl's dad had "problems with drinking and diabetes. The girls came over after school because dad was asleep."

Then Kufner started talking about taking pain meds due to a degenerative disk and issues with his spine. "My memory is fuzzy. I don't know how much I should say before talking to a lawyer."

He then described how he met the girls' dad, how he started to babysit after school, how the mother asked him to take care of the girls and admitted he had problems with "Kenny", the mother's boyfriend and that she would show up "intoxicated" late at night, that once she sent some guy to pick up the girls and he was "uncomfortable" with that and said that CWS got a call from the girls' grandfather after the mother "threatened the grandpa" and that is how he ended up as the foster father. His version of how he met was pretty much consistent with what Jane Doe # 1 and the mother have testified to except that Jane Doe's mother had a slightly different take on why Kufner did not want "Kenny" around and the guy she sent to pick up her daughters.

When he was asked about the pretext call,  Kufner said that the mother called with "crazy allegations. Basically, I don't know what to say, all she said was inappropriate touching."

"To be honest, I always thought someone would say something," said Kufner. "I was uncomfortable that a girl who is developing on top, I used to wrap my arms around her.

At this point. Det. Franco asked him if Jane Doe #1 could have miscontrued "touching". Kufner responded with that is what he was trying to figure out and "going crazy." He mentioned the bed-wetting and diapers. He said he was never around when the girls took baths or showers.. He washed their hair over the sink "with their clothes on". Said there was a time Jane Doe # 1 was not bed-wetting for a few days in a row but started again after visiting her mom.

Kufner confirmed what Jane Doe # 1 said, which was that the girls shared  a room and slept on bunk beds. The interesting remark he added was that at one point he tried to get them to have separate rooms.

Again, Det. Franco asked if Jane Doe could have misconstrued "inappropriate touching." She said "while helping with pull-ups, you could have accidentally touched her vagina."

In response to a comment about the level of his emotion during this interview, Kufner said, "My emotions are because I was their shining star."

Det. Franco asked Kufner about him getting an erection.

Usually, he paused before answering, but this time, he responded right away with "No."

He said Jane Doe # 1 had rabid fear of the bathroom, she had been teased about the movie Candyman and had to have someone stand outside. In her testimony in court, Jane Doe said, "I am not scared to go to the bathroom; I just didn't want to go near his room without someone there."

"In the last two years, I have made changes," said Kufner. "I took the girls to church. I have always been scared about this. I have mixed feelings." Part of that last sentence was hard to hear because of audio and I think he said, "because of what mom would say." A few minutes later he said the grandfather requested he take the girls to church.

Det. Franco asked him if this is something he thinks Jane Doe's mother made up. Kufner responds, "Jane Doe may have mixed memories. Maybe I did do something. I can't remember what I had for breakfast." The memory, again, he said due to his pain meds.

Det. Franco asked, "In your past have you been attracted to young girls?"

"My wives were younger than me," said Kufner. "I ogled at cheerleaders."

"You talk about Jane Doe #1, never Jane Doe #2," said Det. Franco.

"Because all J (mother) said was about Jane Doe #1."

Det. Franco specifically asked about "young girls and attraction."

"I did not touch. I did not do," responded Kufner. "I'm confused."

"Would you be shocked that Jane Doe #1 said you ran your hand on her vagina?" asked Det. Franco. Explain to me how that happened. Either explain or you touched her inappropriately."

There was a silence for a long time, about 5 minutes or more.

"I think something happened," said Det. Franco. "A momentary lapse of judgement. Then right that wrong today."

Some response from Kufner I could not hear clearly and Det. Franco said, "I did not say every night. Something weighing on you Ed?"

"Probably," responded Kufner. "I'm so confused. I have black outs." Kept on about pain meds again, taking Oxycontin, saying he had a glass of beer or wine and would fall asleep in one place like his couch, wake up in another place, in bed.

Again he said, "I always had fear something like this may happen. I don't remember. I will not call her a liar if she says I did, maybe I did."

Then brought up checking diapers, to check and see if she was wet and needed changing.

Detective Franco stepped up the questioning. "I've done this a long time. U know you copped a feel? " Det. Franco told Kufner he would remember something so traumatic. "I'm not telling you to confess to something you did not do. I can tell you are conflicted. If you did this, you are gonna remember."

Again, a very long period of silence. No response from Kufner.

Detectives gave him several opportunities during the interview to explain, to confess, he was silent for long periods.

Finally Kufner said, "Because I am not sure."

"I can tell you are not proud if something occurred," said Det. Franco. "We want to get statement so we can go get her help. You are not going to jail today."

Kufner laughed and then said, "Not today, but what about tomorrow? You want me to confess to something I am not sure of"

"I don't want you to confess to something you didn't do," said Detective Franco. "But you are saying you are not sure. If you touched her inappropriately, you would remember, even one incident."

Then Sgt. Williams said, "If it didn't happen, you would say she is a liar and Ed, I have not heard that once."

Again, Kufner said, "I will not call her a liar." Then went on to say, " She is telling the truth. She has had problems before."

"So what are you going to say that adds credibility to her story," asked Sgt. Williams.

Again, a long period of silence.

"Are you going to let her suffer because of your mistakes," said Det. Franco. "You are telling she is not a liar. You are saying it could have happened when you were balcked out."

Kufner got angry and talked about helping her.

"Did you touch her vagina with your hand," asked Det. Franco. "I'm talking about rubbing her vagina in a sexual way. Wiping/cleaning is a completely different feeling. You are telling me you would not remember that?"

"I would remember that," said Kufner. "You are saying my fingers went inside, No!"

Detective Franco asked Kufner if he ever got an erection "when you were laying with her?"

Again, long period of silence.

"Did you ever wake up with an erection?" asked Det. Franco.

"Yes," said Kufner.

"I am not talking about morning wood," said Det. Franco. "I'm talking about waking up with her with an erection. Do you remember rubbing your penis on her bottom?"

Again, silence.

"These are the kind of allegations made by a 9 year old," said Det. Franco. "9 year olds haven't had sex. They have no knowledge to make these things up."

Again, silence from Kufner.

"This will stick with her the rest of her life," said Det. Franco. "Are you going to take responsibility and give this 9 year old vindication? Or fuck up her life so she grows up to be a drug addict with a daddy lifestyle."

Again, silence from Kufner.

"Do you remember inappropriate touching?" asked Det. Franco.

"That was intentional?" was Kufner's response.

"I remember one incident, waking up with an erection," said Kufner. "I got up out of bed and left."

"in my opinion, silence indicates a yes," said Det. Franco. "These long silences, pondering and justifying" answers, she said to Kufner.

Kufner admits one time he "was holding her and woke up with an erection and had my arms around her. I got up and left." He objects to Det. Franco describing this as "spooning" Jane Doe.

"I wasn't rubbing her," said Kufner. "I fell asleep holding her. I woke up, very upset and embarassed I was holding her like that; I was in that state."

"She remembers you rubbing on her; dry humping her," said Det. Franco.

Kufner kept insisting they had clothes on but could not describe what they were wearing.

"This little girl is pretty articulate," said Sgt. Williams. "She is able to say you touched her inappropriately. Why would she say that. She isn't saying it happened everyday. She isn't saying he raped me."

Silence.

"With your silence, are you saying she is correct?" asked Sgt. Williams.

"I don't have any memory of going in and rubbing between her legs," said Kufner. "I remember that one incident. That is my main fear."

"She describes you spooning her, rubbing on her," said Det. Franco. "She describes your erect penis rubbing on her bottom. You remember waking up behind her."

"And she can articulate when this happened," said Sgt. Williams. Then he asked Kufner about the camping trip. "Are you saying that didn;t happen."

"No," said Kufner.

"So you are saying you were asleep or heavily medicated, you won't call her a liar but you remember that one incident," said Det. Franco. "Maybe I misjudged you Ed; I thought you were a nice guy. Maybe your self preservation is more than her vindication. There are hardcore perps who tell me everything because they cared about the victim. We had to coax that one incident out of you."

Kufner said he felt pain, "because I betrayed the trust of someone I love, being in bed with a young girl, it doesn;t make a difference if it is a pee-hard on or a different kind of hard-on."

"It took us an hour for you to tell us you woke up with a boner," said Sgt. Williams. "Your silence is deafening."

Sgt. Williams said he was going to ask Kufner a "yes or no" question. "Is she making all this up about you?"

Kufner's response same as before, "I have no memory of that."

The detectives told him that he never said a clear cut no, there is only silence or "uh..um.' "and that is reactions were not of an innocent person. "How come you never said, hell no, to our questions."

"You are telling me you can rub your naked penis on a little girl's bottom and you cannot remmeber it?" said Det. Franco.

Kufner said he objected to Det. Franco's use of the word spooning because "it implies physical intent."

After the phone call, DDA Curtis asked Sgt. Williams about Kufner's demeanor during the interview.He said it varied from Kufner sitting upright ot tears to putting his head down slightly.

DDA Curtis also asked if deception is used as a tool  in a law enforcement interview and Sgt. Williams said it is, to elicit information.